My Questions and God's Desire
My pastor, John Zimmer, has been preaching through 1 Timothy on Sunday nights and a couple of weeks ago he taught on chapter 2. Verse 3 and 4 says,
"This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
He explained it well, saying that God has two wills - His revealed or specific will and His permissive will. This verse shows His specific will. He wants people to repent from their sins and to turn to Him as the only One who can satisfy them for eternity, but that doesn't happen. Obviously, everyone who has ever lived has not been redeemed. I then asked myself why that didn't happen - well, because it doesn't give God the most glory. God does not save everyone because He is jealous for His own glory, and saving every man doesn't give Him all that glory. So then, my perplexing question is this:
Why does God desire something that doesn't give Him the most glory?
Why does God desire all people to be saved, when saving all people doesn't give Him the most glory?
I understand that I may be suggesting blasphemy, but I'm not entirely sure how to resolve it at this moment in time. There is either a flaw or hole in my argument or there is something else that I still have to learn about God's will and both of those could be true. I love it when I come to these texts that intially look like a contradiction or that twist my mind in knots, for God's thoughts are not our thoughts and it shows the complexity and greatness of our God. Wrestle with these texts, be completely biblical and don't give up.
19 Comments:
Well your post got me thinking... I think MacArthur puts it well. Although you may have already read this I'll post it up in case you haven't or for others...
"The Greek word for 'desires' is not that which normally expresses God's will of decree (His eternal purpose), but God's will of desire. There is a distinction between God's desire and His eternal saving purpose, which must transcend His desires. God does not want men to sin. He hates sin with all His being; thus, He hates its consquences--eternal wickedness in hell. God does not want people to remain wicked forever in eternal remorse and hatred of himself. YET, God, for His own glory, and to manifest that glory in wrath, chose to endure "vessels...prepared for destruction" for the supreme fulfillment of His will...Ultimately, God's choices are determined by His sovereign, eternal purpose, not His desires."
God hates sin and desires for everyone to be saved, but His eternal purpose must transcend His desires...choosing only the elect out of the world to be saved. 2 Peter 3:9 says that the Lord wills that all come to repentance. MacArthur says that the "ALL" means all those who will come to Christ to make up the full number of the people of God.
Well I guess this doesn't really answer your questions, but then I dont really know how to answer your questions...just some thoughts.
thanks for the thought-provoking post. Now my mind is boggled trying to figure it out.
I love to be challenged by scriptureral questions. That is certainly very thought provoking.
Bekah - Thanks for the stuff from MacArthur. I think my pastor said some similar things, but I still don't think that it answers my question. Are God's desires wrong because they don't give Him the most glory? It seems that He accomplishes His eternal purpose because that is what gives Him the most glory, but His desires are never fully fulfilled. Why aren't they fulfilled? because it wouldn't give Him as much glory as His eternal purpose does. But why does God desire those things?
Well Micah, I'm definitely not a junior seminoid like yourself, and I don't know the first thing about Greek (holy cow, Beka!), but my initial gut reaction is that the verse that tells us that God is desirous of saving all people is not in the Bible just for the heck of it. God wanted to convey something to us by stating that He is desirous of all being saved... and I think that He wanted to show that He is loving, caring, compassionate, and kind. In understanding these attributes of God, I do believe that He is most glorified. Imagine if this verse were not there.... how much would that skew our image of God? Would we see Him as cruelly and cynically arbitrary when it comes to who gets saved and who doesn't? That wouldn't bring Him glory. Also, if this verse weren't included, would we assume that man is totally absolved of all responsibility? That wouldn't bring God glory either. No, while I can't totally resolve the paradox you set up, I can suggest that God IS most glorified by the paradox.....
That's the best I got for now.
And probably ever.
Oh one more thing too....
It's definitely a layman's answer, but we've got to remember that just because God something that doesn't make sense to us, it doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to Him, or that it's wrong.... After all, He's God; He can do whatever the heck He wants (except sin, of course.. but He wouldn't want to sin)... and because He is inherently good, He wouldn't want anything that's inherently wrong... therefore the answer to your question as to if God's desires are wrong is a resounding NO.
Steve - Thanks for comments, they are good reminders. Although, I think the only reason that this is an issue or complexing question is because I know and believe those things completely and thus my question conflicts with that truth.
I think you hit it on the head when you said it is in Scripture to hightlight that aspect of God's character. Good thoughts, thanks.
Micah, so you're asking, why does God even desire things in the first place that don't give Him the most glory? (i.e. saving all) And why aren't God's desires fully fulfilled??
I'm going to have to chew on that one for a bit. I told my older brother, a pastor in IN, to read it and post some thoughts...so maybe they'll be some more insight soon.
Hey, well I don't have any answers to your questions, but I did think of this verse:
Isaiah 55:8-9
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And my thoughts higher than your thoughts."
Some things may never make sense to us because God is so much greater than us! But how awesome that we serve such a God!
Certain things in Scripture are mind-boggling. John Piper (who is great but not my favorite) has written a wonderful article on this issue. When i was in college i wrestled through this very issue. My arms were not long enough though and God won!
This (in my opinion) is one of those issues we can study and gain a greater understanding of but still never grasp its full meaning.
God is so much greater than us. Deut 29:29 is way overquoted but it is a great reminder.
The other issue is that some people are only babes (needing milk) and this is a MEATY issue. I'm not suggesting that is you but i think you get my point...
Let me end by going on record to say this: My sister Rebekah is one of the most amazing girls i know. She is a major catch though i dont know if she is even available. Rick Holland preached 4 sermons on her during his "Roadmap to Righteous Relationships" series.
That is way off topic and i apologize for that. Thats what happens when its 9pm and you have not had dinner yet. Ministry rocks(really it does)!
CK
I am sorry. Now I'm really embarassed, but this is what you get when you have 3 older brothers. I'm making him deleate that added blurb.
Interesting discussion...
Steve: you said "because He is inherently good, He wouldn't want anything that's inherently wrong".
Just wondering...Does this mean you believe that things are inherently good/evil and that God is then bound by these? If so, who decides what is good and what is evil/bad? And does that then make good/evil relative? If your answer is that the scripture is what dictates what is good/evil, then God should not be bound by these since He is God...
I agree with the rest of that one comment you made, I'm just wondering if you really meant what you wrote about the nature of good and evil.
To answer your questions, Salikah:
"Does this mean you believe that things are inherently good/evil..."
Yes. Absolutely.
"...and that God is then bound by these?"
Tricky ground here. God is only bound by what He determines himself to be bound by. He cannot stand evil, and does not commit evil. Did some force greater than He put these restrictions upon Him? No, no way, there is no force greater than God. Therefore, we see that God put these restrictions upon himself. His nature revealed throughout scripture continually shows that He does what is good and abhors that which is evil... there is no variation. So is he bound to that which is good? In a sense, yes... but only because He chooses to be.
"If so, who decides what is good and what is evil/bad?"
That's an easy one. God does.
"And does that then make good/evil relative?"
Again, yes and no. For example, for you or I to be jealous for our own glory would be evil. For God to do the same would be good. However, if we base everything off the desire of bringing God the most glory (which, I think, the original point of Micah's blog had something to do with), then good (and conversely, evil) suddenly becomes less relative.
"If your answer is that the scripture is what dictates what is good/evil, then God should not be bound by these since He is God..."
Ummmm.... not really tracking with you on this last point, but I'd say that since everything in Scripture comes directly from God, I don't think He'd have a problem sticking with what He said...
Anyway, hope that helps.
Seriously Micah, you're turning into a regular Phil Johnson.
I have scriptures to back up each of my points and I just realized I probably should've put them in there, but it's late and I'm really tired.... sorry....
ALL-
Now that i Embarrassed my little sister.....
For the record, i was not trying to hook her up with any TMC or TMS guys.
Just ignore my previous post (the end part).
CK
I've been pondering this a lot for, it seems, a long time - how can God desire something that doesn't happen?? Like, He's GOD! Can His desires negate His glory? Perhaps it's because from a human perspective we cannot fathom wanting something, having all the means to get it, and then not acting.
I love the verse Bekah posted - at least in the form of a non-answer, check out the context of Isaiah 55. It's all about salvation and God's purpose and will. So fascinating - at a point in this whole salvation/glory/desire conversation, God just stops and reminds us - I'm God. I know you also had a great conversation with the guys this morning, so it probably cleared some things up. I've settled on the fact that, at a point, though I wrestle and fight to know more, I won't really know until I die. As Spurgeon once wrote, Man's responsibility and God's sovereignty only meet on the anvil of heaven.
Steve:
Thank you for responding. If you read what you've said carefully, then essentially, you do not really believe that things are inherently good/evil, but rather, good is what God tells us is good and evil is what God tells us is evil...
Peace,
Salikah
Ummm I believe both because God, in creating everything, predestined somethings to be good and some to be evil....
It seems to me that the simple truth that God has given man free will and choice in our actions DOES in fact give him the most glory. There is no other god and no other thing that allows man to come to grips with a decision for himself, when, in essence, the decision has already been made. In his book "The Screwtape Letters", C.S. Lewis suggests that this very part of God, in giving his creation choice, is what the enemy hates most. This, in essence draws man away from himself and is forced to look at two options and be faced with the reality of the reality of Christ Jesus. If our God was all-controlling, there would be no option, and man would have one less reason to give him glory. Certainly, the redeemed would, naturally, but those who "have not yet seen Him" would live in an environment of ignorance with no realization of their reason for creation.
I do not think that you are suggesting blasphemy, but rather wrestling with the Word of God, which is good, as through such, will gain a broader picture of who our great God is and what He desires.
Closing thought: in regards to your comment about God's eternal purpose, may I remind you that He functions on a plane which is far greater and infinite than we can even begin to understand or truly imagine. We may come close and merely touch a simple perverbial tip of the iceberg in our understanding of eternity and God's working therin, but never truly understand until He calls us home.
This issue seems to have a lot of people thinking and seeking out scripture..so just some thoughts...
Psalm 119:18 says, "Open my eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of your law." And the Psalmist prays throughout "Teach me, O Lord, the way of Your statues, And I shall keep it to the end. Give me understanding and I shall keep your law." (33-34)
When studying these issues we should study them with a right heart and pray like the Psalmist asking God to open our eyes. The Holy Spirit gives us the ability to understand Scripture so we must HUMBLY pray for God's help. We cannot on our own attempt to grasp or understand the things of God! While it may not ever completely make sense, it is only by His grace that we can understand. In Grudem's Systematic Theology it says, "No matter how intelligent, if the student does not continue to pray for God to give him or her an understanding mind and a believing and humble heart, and the student does not maintain a personal walk with the Lord, then the teachings of Scripture will be misunderstood and disbelieved, doctrinal error will result, and the mind and heart of the student will not be changed for the better but for the worse." It is so neat to be able to study out the Scriptures and so amazing that God gives us an understanding of His word. He doesn't have to!
Thank the Lord for His already given understanding while humbly and prayerfully seek to undertand more!
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